Dr. Andrew Brunson: Enduring Hardship by Tasting God’s Presence

 American pastor Dr. Andrew Brunson served a small, Christian congregation in Turkey for 23 years, until government authorities arrested, imprisoned, and persecuted him over a two-year period between 2016 and 2018. He was falsely accused of terrorism for starting churches, training believers, and aiding refugees in a house of prayer in the city of İzmir, Turkey.

On Wednesday, February 26, 2025, Dr. Brunson spoke to students, faculty, and staff at Regent University’s weekly campus chapel service in Virginia Beach, Virginia. He shared about his harrowing ordeal, the worldwide prayer movement that helped sustain him, and the significant political pressure from the U.S. government that finally brought him home.

Here’s a transcript of that speech and video link if you prefer to watch:

Pastor Andrew Brunson – Regent University Chapel Video

Now, if somebody had told me, before I went to prison, if someone had said, “Andrew, you’re going to spend time in a Turkish prison,” I would’ve been afraid. But I also would’ve had a sense of bravado, a sense of confidence, like, “Yeah, I can handle that. That’ll be difficult. But I can do this.” And there are three reasons why I would’ve had this sense of confidence.

One is because I was a relatively tough missionary. My wife and I had been starting churches in Turkey for a number of years. That’s not some, you know, if you really care about personal popularity, you don’t try to start churches in Muslim country. And also, we’d had death threats. We’d had bomb threats. One time a gunman came and attacked our church and shot at me. So we had learned to live with a level of risk. So I thought of myself… [as] a relatively seasoned, experienced and tough person. So I can handle this.

The second reason I would feel confidence is because of the biographies I’ve read. Many of them are my spiritual heroes, people who have suffered for their faith, and they do talk about their struggles. But… you don’t see a lot of, you don’t see an internal struggle very often. And so my expectation would be, “Well, it’ll be difficult, but I’ll have a sense of grace. Grace will just kind of carry me through in a bubble. I’ll have a sense of joy, also supernatural strength. I’ll also have the presence of God with me. So because of the biographies, because of the testimonies of other people that I’d heard, I would have a heightened expectation of being able to handle difficulties.

The third reason I would have that sense of confidence is because of my relationship with God. Because I had been running after God for years. Norine and I were running after God’s presence, running after His heart. I’d had experiences of God’s presence, especially if I’m focused on presence I had tasted of His presence a number of times. And so for those reasons, I would’ve had that sense of high expectation that I would do well, that it would be difficult, but I would be able to handle things.

And so, Norine and I were called into the police station. We were arrested together, held for two weeks, then Norine was released. And I began a two-year, uh, journey through the ordeal in the Turkish prison system. I was transferred into solitary confinement, and I was surprised by how quickly I broke. Now, I hadn’t expected that. I’d expected difficulty, but strength. And I began to break very quickly, and there are several reasons why I broke.

One was fear. I was overwhelmed with fear. I realized I’m in the, in the hands of a, of a government that’s very anti-Christian, and they can do anything they want to me. And, uh, I was overwhelmed with, with the hormones that fear releases stress hormones. So cortisol and adrenaline. And if they wanna break you, you know, they, they isolate you. And they, uh, sleep deprivation are the two things that really break people. So I was isolated. I’m in solitary confinement, and, uh, they don’t deprive me of sleep. Uh, I can sleep the whole time. I’m alone. No one’s with me, no one’s bothering me. But my body deprived me of sleep.

Those stress hormones, I began to fall asleep and a jolt of adrenaline will wake me up. And over time, that broke down my body. I broke down the natural tranquilizers that I, I would, uh, have in my body. And, uh, I lost about, uh, 50 pounds. My body broke down. Uh, and also I began to have wave after wave of panic attack. And, uh, when you mix despair with panic, that’s a very, very dangerous mixture. So the fear broke me down. Isolation. I mentioned I was in solitary confinement. After a time they moved me into a high security prison. I was no longer alone. Uh, I was in a, uh, a cell built for eight people. There were, uh, 23 of us in that cell, and you never leave the cell. So it was very crowded, very intense. And I wasn’t alone, but I was still isolated, isolated by my culture, my life experience, my nationality, but especially by my faith, because I was the only, uh, Christian in that group.

The, all my cellmates throughout my time in prison were very, very committed Muslims. So I was, I didn’t have anyone, uh, I could pray with anyone who could encourage me, anyone who could correct me when I was, uh, thinking in a wrong way. And so this isolation was, was very difficult for me. And also, the uncertainty, uh, uncertainty just devoured me. It was so difficult. I, I said I spent two years in prison. I didn’t know that it would be two years if I’d known, I would’ve begun to count the days. Uh, and I still would’ve broken because of my conditions, but I would’ve had an end in sight. Uh, but the Turkish government said they wanted to give me three life sentences. So it wasn’t, I did not have any certainty that I would get out. I didn’t have an end date, and I actually did not know that I would be released until the very day that I was released.

So this uncertainty devoured me, and it was, uh, it, it really tested my heart. So those things, the isolation, the fear, the uncertainty were enough to break me. But what really surprised me, well, I understood that this was persecution. Uh, I didn’t like it, but I understood intellectually what was happening to me. But what I, I could not understand is where are you, God, where are you in the midst of this? Because what happened is that I felt abandoned by God when I first showed up in solitary confinement. I said, God, as long as, as long as I have your presence, I could do anything. I can endure this if I have your presence. And then I lost all sense of his presence for the entire time I was in prison. I lost a sense of his voice, that I could trust him. I lost, I lost a sense of his presence and any way in which I had experienced his, his love in my life in the past.

And I, I was, I was deeply wounded by this. I was, uh, I was disappointed, but I was also, I was deeply wounded, uh, because I felt abandoned by God and abandoned in my most difficult times when I’m actually suffering for him. And this wounded heart, this disappointment in God took me into spiritual crisis. I I began to question God’s existence. And the first time I did that, I began to cry. I said, how could this happen? I’ve started churches, I’ve baptized Muslims, and here I’ve taught and preached for years, and now I’m even questioning whether God exists. And then I began to accuse him. I don’t, I don’t know that you’re faithful. I don’t really see your love for me. I don’t, I don’t know that you’re completely good. And I don’t know that you’re completely truthful. I think that you’ve deceived me. And so I began to accuse God’s character. And this took me, it broke me spiritually. And I ended up then becoming suicidal. And I very much, uh, struggled with, with suicide for the first year. That’s probably not the testimony you were expecting, right?

So why am I talking about this? Is because the problem of suffering, of pain is very real. When I was a philosophy student at Wheaton College, I, I could answer, uh, you know, the issues involved with this. If God is all powerful and he’s loving and good, then, then how? Why does he allow so much suffering? And I, I, I could give you an answer. And now that I’m older and have suffered, I, I say I, I really don’t know. But this is an issue that many people deal with. There are many books that have been written about it, but it’s something that people deal with. Uh, I, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve met a number of people who’ve turned away from God. They say, I, I can’t believe in a God that would allow so much suffering. And this happens when there’s a natural disaster, an earthquake, a hurricane, something terrible happens.

We say, God, how could you let this happen? But we also blame God when things are a result of man sin. For example, when there’s a terrible war or mass shooting, people say, God, how could you allow this to happen? You could have intervened and stopped it, and many people turn away from God because of this. But I think it’s even more difficult for those of us who are believers because God describes himself as a father. He, he describes himself as, as a loving husband. And I’m the object of as affection. And, and I said to God, God, I want to treat my son this way. I wouldn’t treat my wife this way, the way that you’re treating me. So it’s difficult for us as, as believers, as sons and daughters of God, of a supposedly loving father when he doesn’t intervene for us. So this is the danger of the wounded heart, of the offended heart.

And Jesus warned about it. He said, the love of many will grow cold. And when he said this, he was speaking to believers. And I think it’s a danger for us. I think right now, uh, there, I I think that there is a, a wave of, of hostility and persecution that’s going to break on the church in the United States. I think there’s a delay right now because of some things that President Trump is doing. But that’s only on the governmental side. Our, our culture has changed dramatically. It is post-Christian now and increasingly anti-Christian. And I think we’re going to face pressure in this country in the near future, social and financial pressure for sure. And I think many believers are, Jesus said that people would be offended. He said, uh, they’ll be offended at the, at the level of wickedness that God allows at the judgments that he brings.

We’re not under judgment as believers, but we live in a nation that will be under judgment and also because people will face persecution. And in the midst of that persecution, people, many believers, I think will go through what I did and say, where are you, God? And so there’s a danger that as we go into times of difficulty into, into more turbulent times, that many believers will struggle with this in their heart and their love will grow cold. And this is a danger, especially, this is a school I think is famous for, uh, welcoming the Holy Spirit, right? This is an even greater danger for those who have experienced the presence of God, because our expectations are higher. If you don’t expect God to intervene, if you don’t never tasted his presence, then you won’t be offended when you don’t have it. But if you have, then it’s more difficult.

So this is what was happening to me. I was going into crisis with God. And, um, I want to tell you about how God rebuilt my heart in the second year. It wasn’t by giving me his presence. It was, well, I want to tell you how that happened. I had a, a, a picture of the valley of testing, uh, and God doesn’t cause all of our problems, but he does test us when we’re in the midst of them. And I just saw in my mind just this valley of testing filled with the dry bones and the skeletons of believers who failed in their test. Not whether they go to heaven or not, that’s a different question. But they’ve lost their friendship with God when they went through difficulties. And I thought, this is, this was a grace. God drove it into my heart.

And I I started to say, oh God, I’m so close to this point. I don’t want to end up losing my friendship with you. And so I began to fight. I made the choice to fight, and the fight started like this. I said, God, whatever you do or do not do, he may not do anything. Whatever you do or do not do, I will still follow you. If you don’t give me your presence, I’ll follow you. If you don’t give me your voice, I’ll follow you. If you, if you don’t give me a sense of grace, I’ll follow you. If you don’t release me from this prison, I will still follow you. And what I was doing was setting aside the conditions that I had placed on God. God, if you do this for me, then I’ll know that you love me. Or if you do that, then I’ll know that you’re really faithful.

And I made a decision to turn my eyes toward God. And I had to do this many times in my weakness. And sometimes I only had enough strength. Let’s say I could only turn one degree in his direction. But turning one degree in his direction is all the difference in the world from turning one degree away from them. Because when I chose to turn toward him, it positioned me so he could work in my life, even if I don’t feel it. And I emphasize that this is a decision of the will, not the emotions. The emotions can be all in turmoil. It’s a decision of the will. And I emphasize this because someday you may be in darkness, you may be in your own dark alley. You do have enough willpower so that you can choose to turn one degree in his direction, and that will make the difference.

It will invite him to, to come in and work in that situation in your life. Another thing I did is that I decided that I would, uh, well, I imagined a lockbox, and I, I, I opened it up and I just visualized putting into it my questions and my doubts and my accusations against God, and then locking it securely. And I said, God, you and I are the only ones who can open this box. And if you want to open it while I’m in prison and answer my questions, then that will make me very happy. But I, I choose not to open it. I make a decision with my will. I’m not going to open this box. I’m not going to allow these questions and doubts a place in my mind. I will not entertain them any longer. I I don’t have to have answers to have a relationship with you.

I want them, but I don’t have to have them. And this, this, this changed my time in prison because it, I, I was suffocating my doubts and questions were suffocating me. And now I, I, I could begin to breathe again and, uh, and begin to receive truth again. You know, it’s not wrong to ask questions. There are many examples in the Bible of people who ask questions of God, but I don’t want to allow them to, to come between God and me. I don’t want them to separate me from God. So I, I had many questions for God. And I became aware at some point that God had questions for me. Andrew, are you going to love me when you don’t see my love? Are you going to be faithful to me when you don’t see my faithfulness? You know, there, there are many things that, that I don’t understand, I still don’t understand. I still have my lockbox. I keep, I keep some of my questions in there.

One of my, one of my heroes in prison was a man in Richard Vern Brandt, who was a pastor in Romania, who was imprisoned for a number of years under the Communist regime. And one of the things that caught my attention in one of his books is that he talks about other believers who were in prison for their faith, who went insane in prison. And I could understand this because I also tasted of insanity in prison. But I also react to it because I say, wait, Jesus says, my grace is sufficient for you. Is the grace of God sufficient to keep these men from going sane? What do you think? You know, the, the, how does this fit into your theology of suffering? Uh, what Richard rebrand said about them, he said, is their insanity is beautiful to God. And I think this is what he meant.

You know, those men, uh, went insane because of their faithfulness to God. They ended up in prison for their faith. And, uh, so they were suffering persecution. And someday I’m going to meet them in heaven. And I’m going to say, wow, you guys are the ones who went insane in prison because of your faithfulness. This is amazing. And they, they’re just covered with honor, and they’re going to carry this eternity. And I’m sure that they have no regrets over what they suffered in this life. Everything has been made right? But, but it wasn’t made right in this life. And this life. They died insane in prison. No, I was God’s grace sufficient to keep them from going sane. Yes it is. But he did not give them that grace and sufficient measure to keep them from going sane. He could have, but he didn’t. I learned that grace is not an anesthetic. You can have grace that will sustain you, but still suffer, still have pain, still have grief, still have loss. Now, I thought I was the weakest person in the world when I was in prison. And then I got out and I found out that there are Chinese and North Koreans and Iranians who have also broken when they’re in prison for their faith. Now, God, you know, we, we break. We’re human. We break, and God allows us to break.

God is faithful, God is good. But it’s not always easy to understand how that manifests. I think of how would you speak to a mother in Nigeria whose daughter has been kidnapped by Boko Haram, an Islamist movement, and she’s being raped repeatedly, and you don’t know if she’ll ever get out, get back to her family. How do you talk about God’s faithfulness, about God’s love to that woman? It would be very difficult, wouldn’t it? And what I’d have to say is I have to say what God says. That’s a basic principle. Say what God says about himself, about us, about others. And God says about himself that he’s faithful, that he is good and loving. And so I have to say that also, even when I don’t understand it. So what I’d have to say to that mother is, God is good. God is faithful. I don’t understand what that looks like in your situation, but I have to say, God is good. God is faithful. I have to say what is true.

No, I think that there are many things we don’t understand. And God is willing to actually offend us, and he will test us with offense. And I think of John the Baptist. He’s in a, in a dungeon. And, uh, he’s starting to have questions. And he sends his disciples to ask Jesus for some answers. Jesus does not speak into his situation. He does not use his power for him. This is what he says. He says, John blessed. It is the one who’s not offended by me. He didn’t speak into a situation. He could have given him a nice, encouraging prophetic word. He could have used his power form. He didn’t. He just says, John, watch out that after you’ve come so far, this is one of God’s greatest servants ever. He’s saying, after you’ve come this far, be careful that you don’t stumble. Now that you do not become offended.

There’s another example of where Jesus is speaking to a large group of disciples, and he says, you have to eat my flesh and drink my blood if you’re going to have life. And they were so offended by this, that they all left. Only the 12 disciples are left. And Jesus says, are you going to leave too? And Peter says, well, where else can we go? You know, it’s so, they were so offended, and this is what really catches my attention. If I were Jesus, I would’ve said, wait, come back. You know, let me explain it again. But he didn’t. They were offended and he let them go. Sometimes God goes after people and sometimes he doesn’t. And this should be very sobering for us. And then there’s an example of a Canaanite woman, and she comes to Jesus desperate for help for her daughter. And Jesus ignores her. He basically turns his back on her. It ignores her. Finally, his disciples say, Jesus, she’s driving us crazy. Please send her away. And he turns and he basically says, you’re a dog. And this is very offensive in the Middle East, you’re a dog. And look at her response. She says, this is my, my version, <laugh>, okay, I’m a dog, but this dog is not leaving. This dog is staying right here in front of you.

And Jesus is so moved by her her response. She and her daughter are saved because she overcame the offense. What will you do when God offends you? Because he probably will. What will you do when he offends you? Because it seems to me that God is looking for those who will overcome offense, who will ignore it, who will, who will press on through it. And in spite of it, in spite of the hurt, in spite of doubt, confusion. And by doing this in some way, these people prove their devotion, their allegiance to Jesus. And then in some way, their worthy of him.

One of my theme verses in prison was Isaiah 50, verse 10. And, uh, Jesus is, I mean, God is speaking to Israel, uh, in their exile. And he says to them, for the one who walks in darkness and has no light, let him trust in the name of the Lord and lean on him. He could have said, I’m going to send light. I want to encourage you. The light is coming, but he doesn’t. He says, you’re going to be in darkness for a while when you’re in the dark. Lean on me, lean into me. And I think this is what God, one of the things he was wanting to, to, to teach me is to, I needed to learn to stand in the dark, to lean into him. Whatever my circumstances and whatever my feelings,

You know, there are different kinds of victory. I think since you’re Holy Spirit oriented. You know, we, we declare, and the walls fall down and God wants us to go for those things, to go for those victories. But there are different kinds of victories. What happens when the wall doesn’t fall down? There’s still a victory to be won, but that’s a victory of the heart, maybe. And the victories of the heart are many times more difficult, and they’re many times more important. Now, I think when I set aside my conditions that I placed on God, that’s a victory of the heart. When I turn my eyes toward him rather than away, it’s a victory of the heart. When I, when I say, I don’t need answers, <laugh>, I don’t have to understand to have a relationship with you. That’s a victory of the heart. When I love him, when I don’t see his love, when I’m faithful, when I don’t see his faithfulness, that’s a victory of the heart.

You know, people sometimes talk to me after I share and they, they tell me one of their difficulties. And then they’ll say, well, but Andrew, what I went through isn’t as difficult as what you went through. You were in prison. And I say, wait, stop a minute. ’cause my tests are enough to knock me outta friendship with God. And your tests are enough to knock you out of friendship with God. You know, we’re tested in different ways, but the area of the horse’s tested is the same. Think of my youngest son. He wanted to be an elite soldier. He wanted to be a ranger. He was in their selection program doing very well. Then he suffered an injury and it knocked him out of his dream. And about a year later, he begins to open up his heart. And, and, uh, he tells us, you know, I thought I had prophetic words. I thought God was involved in my life and had spoken to me about things, and I pray and he doesn’t answer me, and I have no sense of his presence. And I said, bla, you’re having the same questions I did in prison. You know, for me, the test is three life sentences for him. It’s a broken dream, but it’s the same questions. It’s the same doubts, it’s the same, it’s the same crisis.

So at some point in your life, you’re going to go into a crisis. We go into many crises, but there’ll be, I think, at least one in your life where you will also say, where are you? God, I don’t know what your, what your crisis will be. But you’ll feel that you’re in the dark and abandoned by God. And it may be a broken dream. It may be, uh, a betrayal. It may be the loss of a loved one, the death of someone who’s close to you. It could be financial loss. I’ve seen people who are faithful in ministry, whose ministry collapses. I’ve seen people who are very generous giving into the kingdom and their business collapses. I don’t know, I don’t understand. I say to you, what I said to my son. I said, blaze, I don’t have an answer that can satisfy your heart, but I can tell you what you need to do. Are you going to love God when you don’t see his love? Are you going to be faithful when you don’t see his faithfulness? And at some point in your life, you may cry out, God, where are you? Where is my shepherd? Where are you? Jesus, why are you so distant? Why are you so silent? Where are you?

Why have you left me in darkness? Why haven’t you intervened? I don’t understand. And I, I don’t have an answer that will satisfy your heart. But God is asking you. He will ask you the same questions he ask me, will you love me when you don’t see my love? Will you be faithful when you don’t see my faithfulness? And I, I want to underline this for you, especially as you go, as we go into a more difficult time of the years ahead.

I don’t have the answers, and I may not have them in this life. But more important than getting the answers and understanding is, is that you have to make it through <laugh>. You have to survive those times of crisis. You’re, you have to remain faithful. Your devotion to God is being tested, and you have to hold onto him even when you don’t understand, even when you don’t have answers. Will you love him when you don’t see his love? Will you be faithful when you don’t see his faithfulness? I’m going to stop there. Say, father God, I ask for those who have already suffered a disappointment, whose hearts are wounded. Holy Spirit, I ask you to bring healing, bring healing, release healing into this room, and God release just a, a profound love for you and a devotion to you that will overcome the offended heart. I ask for my brothers and sisters that you pour into us, into us, your sons and daughters, the strength and the courage, and the confidence and hope, and the steadfastness perseverance of Jesus, so that we may run the race set before us and finish well,

A beautiful bride purified in the fires of faithful obedience and found worthy of her, beloved of Jesus, the king of glory. Strengthen us for the days ahead. May we stand loving you, faithful to you, even if it’s in the dark. I bless you in the name of my King.  Amen.

Dr. Andrew Brunson holds a Ph.D. in New Testament from the University of Aberdeen in Scotland. Currently, he serves as a lecturer for the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. He and Norine have three children.